Questioning Shidemn

Here’s an interesting conversation I had with an atheist blogger; many common issues came up that may be enlightening to read:

Shidemn said:

…there are things that i find illogical in the christian religion (all but we are focussing on Christian), but there are also many thing that just dont work with my morals, but ill get to that later, the thing that i find illogical is this, God is supposed to be an almighty judge, who apparently creates people in his image, some good, some bad, but my problem with all this is, is this, he is said to have created us as perfect, but yet given us the ability to become flawed, which is just illogical to me. So that is one of some thing i find illogical, but back to my other point the religion goes against my morals, like that it says gays are sinners and should be punished in hell for being such, this is terrible!, i am straight, but i am a full suporter of all gays, they are born gay so they cannot control their sexuality and should not have to Christianity basically says that being gay is something god does to people (dont know why) and then ultimately punishes them for it, but it also asks these people to repress their sexual tendencies if they want to go to heaven. I find that to be terriblly immoral.

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Poppies said:

First, thanks for your candor. You have a refreshing way of speaking passionately about your opinions without demonizing the opposition, which is really rare. Nice job. 

Regarding your first point, I think you’re implying that it’s a contradiction to describe God as creating “perfect” creatures who then somehow became “not perfect”, that the possibility for imperfection belies perfection.

While I think it’s questionable to describe man as being created “perfect” since that descriptor isn’t used in the biblical account, I nonetheless argue that reason demands free will be present in any “perfect” individual. It’s only logical that a free agent is of a greater existence than an automaton. Accordingly, perfection must logically include the possibility for imperfection. This is paradoxical and non-intuitive, I’ll concede, but it’s nonetheless eminently reasonable. Am I missing something?

As for your second point, the rhetoric which singles out gays or anyone else “outside” of Christianity as being somehow especially targeted for punishment has always seemed disingenuous to me. If an asian man breaks into a black man’s home in the middle of the night, and the homeowner shoots the intruder, it would be outrageous to conclude from this that the black man was racist towards asians. Similarly, God doesn’t have any issues with gays, jews, atheists, etc. per se, he has an issue with sinners, those who transgress law, no matter their background.

I sympathize with your feelings toward gay people; I’ve had and have many very good friends who are gay. There’s been a very unfortunate anti-biblical tendency to portray gays as intrinsically hell bound by some nominal Christians, and even non-Christians, but that’s not what the Bible says. The deal is that *everyone* is a sinner, we all need forgiveness, and no one reaches perfection in this life. To judge gay people as “higher order” sinners of some sort is hypocritical, and hypocrisy is the sin Jesus spoke against more than any other. In reviewing all these points, I hope you see that you’ve received a skewed view of what the Bible teaches about homosexuality.

Perhaps I haven’t picked up on some important point, but I fail to see any lack of logic in Biblical Christianity thus far. I’m truly open, feel free to clarify any errors I’ve made.

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Shidemn said:

poppies-

OK i have a quick question for you (the point will be clear later once you answer it), were you raised as a christian, in other words were your parents, or did you grow up and decide one day to become one?

It is interesting you said that you dont think man is created perfect, which differs from MANY other christians that i have had the fortune to talk with, this in a way confuses me and also entigues me. I think it is as a said rare that you do not think that, as many do, why would you say that your god didnt create man perfect (more for christian readers, i dont think your god would create man perfect if he indeed did exist), but why do you think that? But the thing within that that i find illogical is just that perfection=imperfection ultimately ending to hell o heaven, it just seems wrong to me, but this is simply how i think.

Secondly you say you sympathize my feelings towards homosexuals, why? I support them, and think that it is wrong that religions say they are evil or amoral. I think that it is simply natural, some people are just different than other, simple. Really you think that it i who have gotten a skewed view of what the bible teaches on being gay, why dont you tell me exactly where in the bible it adresses it and i will read it, as i have a bible that i have read (some of).

And not to seem like a dick here, but of course you dont find it illogial, you never will because it is so intertwined into your being, that you wholeheartedly belive it with every bit of your being, and it is that exact thing that makes it why i will never accept religion. But i think it is through these debates that makes your religiousness, and my atheistic ways thrive. we are presented with opposing views we interpret them in our own way, and that becomes another debate, and i guess that ultimately the best thing that can ever come from this is that we come to a FULL AND COMPLETE understanding, seeing as how total enlightment can not ever be accomplished.

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Poppies said:

I wasn’t raised as a Christian, which is part of why I was able to avoid the whole “Christian culture” thing which has very little to do with the Bible.

If you describe having freedom to do evil as being imperfect (which you seem to, though I don’t think you’ve logically proven that such is the case), then it’s quite clear from the Bible that man was created “imperfectly”. The Bible never describes man as being created “perfectly” by your definition; man is instead described as “very good”, which in the original Hebrew means “exceedingly valuable”, “exceptionally pleasing”. My understanding may be different from many Christians, but I’m not too keen on reading things into the Bible that aren’t there; that’s where 90% of troubles with Christianity begin.

Moving on, I sympathize with your feelings toward homosexuals because I think of my gay friends being treated as pariahs and labeled as arch-sinners, and it pains me. Whether homosexuality is “natural” or not isn’t really impactful, as one could argue that cannibalism, rape, or any of a host of other distasteful choices can be found in nature. What you said is quite true, though, everyone is unique, we all make different choices, good and bad. In a biblical weltanschauung, we are free to do so, and no man has a fundamental right to forcibly curb any other man’s actions unless they impinge on someone else’s rights or property. It is our unfortunate cultural missteps that lead so many to believe it is not only within their rights but part of their duty to try and force others to believe and act as they do.

You asked me to direct you to where the Bible speaks to homosexuality; I respectfully and apologetically have to decline. You see, I’ve found the Bible to be a complex work which can be very easily abused if read without a strong sense of holistic context, which can only come through at least a modicum of study of some of its key component books. Suffice to say that the Bible teaches homosexuality as an act, not an identity, and one that isn’t helpful in leading people to a thriving life. Note, though, that directly after one of the most famous passages regarding homosexuality, the Bible says that anyone who judges another person’s actions as despicable condemns themselves, because they themselves act just as despicably. This is a common theme in the Bible: we must recognize the image of God inherent in *everyone*, and stop trying to compare ourselves self-righteously.

Regarding the selection bias you reference in your final paragraph: I recognize you’re not trying to be offensive, but you must understand as one who has wrestled with theism and still finds it somewhat distasteful and constantly seeks for contrarian evidence, I find it hard to swallow your presumption that I’m not ready to drop the whole shebang in an instant upon finding clear, critical problems. If the emotionally-charged embracing you describe is truly how you approach your own beliefs, I would respectfully caution you that beliefs which aren’t loosely held aren’t beliefs, they’re dogma. Reference the oft-misquoted Emerson: “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds”.

If you know of incontrovertible cracks in the foundation, please, do share. I seriously do have an open mind and would be utterly grateful. I sure don’t want to waste my life!!

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Shidemn said:

Poppies- so because of this
“My understanding may be different from many Christians, but I’m not too keen on reading things into the Bible that aren’t there; that’s where 90% of troubles with Christianity begin.”
I am left wondering what you mean by this, do explain please.

“It is our unfortunate cultural missteps that lead so many to believe it is not only within their rights but part of their duty to try and force others to believe and act as they do”
This makes me wonder why? Do you think that you are supposed to force you will on others without their own consent?

“If the emotionally-charged embracing you describe is truly how you approach your own beliefs, I would respectfully caution you that beliefs which aren’t loosely held aren’t beliefs, they’re dogma.”
How are they dogma?

Sorry for all the questions in my comment here.

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Poppies said:

The first thing you quoted from me simply means that many Christians read their own presuppositions and prejudices into the Bible, rather than just taking in what’s actually there. For instance, lots of Christians think the Bible says “money is the root of all evil”, but it actually says “love of money is a root of all kinds of evils”, which is a pretty significant difference, especially since Jesus taught on money more than any other subject and considered it neutral, just a tool. That’s one of the more benign examples, lots of contemporary “Christian” statements about homosexuality aren’t so benign, and they’re not biblical, either. Such statements unfortunately represent a stumbling block for people like you who see homosexuals as people and not as miscreants. Accordingly, I find this tendency to misread and misquote the Bible quite maddening. Context!!

I’m not sure what your second question is getting at, but no, I think it’s a travesty to try and force someone to act or believe against their will. I think that to do so is a fundamentally blasphemous action, since God Himself gave us the gift of free will. Now, having said that, I also believe in the “marketplace of ideas”, and I’m not at all sympathetic with those who cry foul when their ideas or actions are questioned or denigrated. There’s a very unfortunate tendency by some people opposed to Christianity to claim persecution when Christians speak out against their positions. Such people often claim to believe in free speech and the separation of church and state, but then they often try to silence Christians by using government force!

As for beliefs not loosely held being dogma, I would think that’s pretty self explanatory. If you allow your beliefs to completely define who you are, then you will find it difficult, if not impossible, to change your position if you discover new information or a new perspective which you would otherwise find convincing. Such calcified thinking is often attributed to the religious among us, but it’s found just as often in secular individuals. That’s not to say one shouldn’t act on the truth they find, just that one must remain intellectually flexible and nimble in the pursuit of truth. To be otherwise is to claim the attainment of perfect knowledge!

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Shidemn said:

Poppies-
Well i get right to it then.
I asked:
“Do you think that you are supposed to force you will on others without their own consent?”
You replied:
“I think it’s a travesty to try and force someone to act or believe against their will”
SO:
What i was getting at (you will notice i ask question that may not make sense until a later time) was you think that you are not suppose to force you will on others, without them consenting to your will. Now the purpose of this is, how do you explain the missionaries that make africans convert before they can have food that they brought with them. It sickens me, and not to mention i hate when they come to my house, i just want to put a big sign that says “athiests welcome, missionaries go away”….but enough of my little rant, back on subject

You said:
“If you allow your beliefs to completely define who you are, then you will find it difficult, if not impossible, to change your position if you discover new information or a new perspective which you would otherwise find convincing”
SO: 
Actually whenever i have time i am constantly researching philosophies, religion, science, anything that may lead me to a discovery for myself, and my beliefs, so as for the beliefs completely defining me, you have no idea how much they do, lol.

Ohh yah, as for you first paragraph i didnt really have a rebuttal to that, i actually almost completely agree with what you said and had nothing to continues that stent of our conversation.

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Poppies said:

I can explain the actions of “missionaries” who require “conversion” before distributing relief quite easily: they’re asshats who don’t take the Bible seriously.

Seriously Shidemn, do you have issues with biblical Christianity, or just with the caricature you’ve been handed by pop culture? I’m more than excited to learn about any logical inconsistencies, textual issues, archeological anomalies, etc. you may know about, but so far you’ve presented mostly appeals to emotion based on faulty information. With all due respect, it concerns me, considering the stakes of this particular issue.

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Shidemn said:

Poppies- sorry about that then i have no “textual issues, archeological anomalies”, and i have given examples of the logial inconsistencies i can find, perhaps i could direct you to another blog that discusses the same topics.
http://chillinatthecabstand.wordpress.com

But perhaps you could ask me more questions.

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Poppies Said:

lol, I’m definitely familiar with Chillin’s blog; I haven’t found substantive contrarian ammo there, though he’s got great taste in music 

I guess there’s one question I have left: based on our comments about selection bias and intellectual “nimbleness”, I wonder how you determine the appropriateness of your thresholds for evidence. What I mean is, anyone can be convinced of anything given the right evidence, but most people have tendencies toward skepticism or gullibility due to the intensity or weakness of their personal data filters.

In your case, you seem to tend towards skepticism regarding biblical Christianity. There’s certainly a level of skepticism that is healthy, but there’s also a level of skepticism that’s so intense that it’s irrational (denying gravity, for instance). How do you personally determine whether your filters for acceptable evidence are reasonable or not?

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Shidemn said:

poppies- well i would have to say that my basis of what is rational and what it not rational is really just another one of those things that is completely individual to people. I say this because certainly as there are indeed people out there who believe in god and think that it is rational, and the polar opposite being atheist. So obviously (to me) people decide for themselves what it means to be rational, and so on. In the case for me identifying my own rationalities…well you know i never really put thought to it, lol. I would have to guess that seeing as how i am, questioning everything and rarely believing much that i am told. I would have to say that i decide what is rational to me by decoding if you will the given issue at hand, so say i have to determine what is rational in this situation.

Im in a car, i about to hit a large animal.
a) I am going to swerve
b) I will allow the car to hit the animal.
Now without going into personal moral codes, i would first think ok i have always been told to hit it, being that it is safer, but thinking to myself in this brief moment i would pick to swerve away, because it simply seems to be the most logical thing, at the time, which it may later prove to be a terrible decision.

SO i guess the whole point of that would be to basically say that when presented a current issue at hand, e.g. hitting a large animal, or even deciding not to believe in God. I would just pick which is the most logical option to myself. Now this would also imply that my choice is not limited to a singular choice, being i may later decide that i was indeed wrong, This is exactly why i have my blog, to further investigate my choice of being an atheist, to trully discover the truth in life is impossible, but it would be a life well lived if it were the only thing you did, in my opinion.

I hope my ramblings were not all to senseless to you, i tend to do that.

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Poppies said:

Okay, I understand. Basically what you’re describing, whether you realize it or not, is relativism; that every person makes up their own reality and should live by their own set of standards.

Most people in our culture espouse this view, and almost everyone holds the position inconsistently, because really, a sociopath and a philanthropist are equally justified by this way of thinking.

Best of luck to you, Shidemn. You seem bright and seeking, and I hope you continue to reflect upon your positions, because I think you’ll start to see some of the things I saw back in the day which led me to biblical Christianity.