Open Letter to Suby

The following is in reaction to a commenter on my last post:

Suby, I first off must say your lack of vitriol is refreshing. Thanks.

You mention the Bible, so I’ll speak specifically of Christianity.

I’ll readily admit that most Christians have conclusions created before they see evidence. I’d add that most atheists, scientists, researchers, etc., also do this. Welcome to the true scientific method, which is: conjecture, refutation, conjecture, refutation…

Note that Christians have specific conjectures that are generally systematic; there’s not a great preponderance who claim that God is evil, or that green men run around rooms when no one’s looking. To say so is to show an ignorance (which is commonplace) of the systematic, logic-based quality of Christianity. Logic doesn’t make something true, but Christianity does have concrete barriers of possibility, so it doesn’t have the mark of utter randomness one sees in, say, Greek mythology.

You spoke of “stringent measures” taken by scientists, but you seem to have more faith in the lack of human fallibility than do other scientists and atheists. For instance, Karl Popper, atheist scientist, said “All scientific statements are hypotheses, or guesses, or conjectures, and the vast majority of these conjectures … have turned out to be false. Our attempts to see and to find the truth are not final, but open to improvement; … our knowledge, our doctrine, is conjectural; … it consists of guesses, of hypotheses, rather than of final and certain truths.” Bertrand Russell, the old-school king of atheism himself, said “All inductive arguments in the last resort reduce themselves to the following form: ‘If this is true, that is true: now that is true, therefore this is true.’ This argument is, of course, formally fallacious. Suppose I were to say: ‘If bread is a stone and stones are nourishing, then this bread will nourish me; now this bread does nourish me; therefore it is a stone, and stones are nourishing.’ If I were to advance such an argument, I should certainly be thought foolish, yet it would not be fundamentally different from the arguments upon which all scientific laws are based.”

All this is not to attack science; I’m simply pointing out that faith in the accuracy or completeness of science is just that, faith; it wasn’t that long ago that scientists thought friction was caused by “interlocking asperites” instead of chemical bonding (and that’ll probably be proven false also). My recommendation is to avoid Scientism, and to embrace true knowledge wherever it may be found and whatever ramifications it may have.

Regarding the Bible, with all due respect, you mention many “facts” that are false. For instance, you say that it has been “changed so many times” as if it has been a linear translation, but in actuality, most objective scholars are very impressed with the level of accuracy between modern translations and the earliest manuscripts, which are, as you may not know, still the source of modern translations. The common idea of the Bible as a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy is just erroneous.

Regarding Biblical interpretation, again, with as many Christians as there are in the world, there’s a significantly narrow range of interpretation that makes up orthodoxy. There’s little evidence of “convenient” interpretation (not that it doesn’t exist, just like there are scientists who conveniently intepret tobacco study data, for instance).

I just googled “atheist errors” and quickly found a site that listed pages and pages of them, but that doesn’t mean they’re accurate. Many religious people slander atheists without a concern for accuracy, just as many people say the Bible is full of contradictions without concern for accuracy. The Bible is a complex book, and requires contextual reading for an accurate understanding. If you can show me any true contradictions, I’d love to hear about them, I’ve been looking for one for about ten years now.

My main point is that atheists often have preconceived conclusions and hold fast to them through faith despite contradictory evidence, and claim a monopoly on truth, yet this is the behavior of which they accuse Christians. Lets all stop pretending that we’re not fallible, stop smearing those who think differently than us as less dedicated to logic and reason, and have real conversations that could lead to profound conclusions to which we would otherwise never come.

I’m open-minded and ready to truly take in the substantive arguments you may have; I hope you feel the same.

19 Responses to “Open Letter to Suby”

  1. Evil Bender Says:

    I find this to be an interesting argument, particularly since I was raised Evangelical and have since become an atheist. I respect the tone and thoughtful quality of this discussion, and I’d like to make one overall point. You write:

    All this is not to attack science; I’m simply pointing out that faith in the accuracy or completeness of science is just that, faith

    I would be curious to know how you define faith. Would you define it as Paul does in Heb 11:1? The reason I ask is that it seems to me that faith, by its nature (I know few Christians who would argue that faith must be supported by evidence) does not demand proof of its claims.

    I have a great deal of confidence in science, on the other hand, not because it is always right or because it fits my assumptions to have this confidence, but because science has a proven track record of a) making useful predictions that can be disproven if incorrect and b) rejecting incorrect predictions. Science unquestionably gets results.

    Now, I don’ believe that science has all the answers, or is “complete” (obviously there is much we do not know), but I think there is sufficient reason to believe science is the best tool we have for understanding the natural world.

    Now this does not and cannot discount the possibility of the supernatural. But I would argue (and I hope you agree) that the correct terms of the discussion about Christianity’s validity are “is Christianity consistent with the evidence”? If we agree to those terms, we agree to the validity of the scientific method. If we do not agree, I would ask what basis there is for discussion.

  2. poppies Says:

    The word “faith” is like the word “love”, or “aloha”, it means lots of different things depending on the context. I think Paul was speaking of faith in terms of acts of trust based in a personal relationship with a track record of trust-worthiness. This is not unlike how I have faith the chair I’m currently sitting in will support me because it always has. I’m apparently in the “few” category of Christians, but maybe you don’t get out much, ’cause I know many Christians who are like-minded. :)

    The faith I was referencing however, is the blind type so often derided by the anti-religious (and rightly so, to a great degree). Science often progresses by refutation of previous theories, which means confidence in science as a tool to understand reality is confidence in a tool which has been 100% wrong everytime but the latest time (we think). Science is incredibly useful, but to depend wholly on it for our understanding of reality is Scientism, the fetishizing of science. On the other hand, if scripture is genuinely divine, for which I think there is great EVIDENCE, it is a far superior tool for understanding reality.

    I think you’re dead on in saying the discussion should be “is Christianity consistent with the evidence”. I just happen to have great difficulty in finding people who are objective enough to have such a discussion. Perhaps you’re one such person. A dual-blog investigation could prove interesting.

  3. Evil Bender Says:

    “Science often progresses by refutation of previous theories, which means confidence in science as a tool to understand reality is confidence in a tool which has been 100% wrong everytime but the latest time (we think).”

    I think you’re misinformed on this point. Science rarely proves previous theories “wrong.” I.E. Einstein demonstrated that Newtonian models were insufficient, but he didn’t show it was “wrong”–in certain situations, Newton’s laws still work perfectly.

    We have great confidence in much that science has discovered–the germ theory of disease, relativity, evolution, etc.–because these theories have been repeatedly verified by multiple lines of evidence. In science there is no absolute proof–but that’s why we have such confidence, because science encourages (and even makes famous) those who successfully demonstrate problems in previous theories.

    As I said, science can’t do everything. It cannot be a moral guide, for example, as it is concerned only with establishing facts about the physical world. But results alone (think of all the theories that have to be right for computers to run at all; think of how if Einstein was wrong, particle accelerators wouldn’t work) demonstrate how useful it is at what it can do.

    Aside from that, I’m glad you don’t define faith the way many do. We can have a reasonable discussion because you acknowledge the importance of reason to debate.

    I believe it is acceptable to believe something in the absence of evidence to the contrary (most hypothesis are formed this way–not yet with much support, but with nothing contradicting them). But it is not acceptable to believe something despite the evidence, because this rules out reason and logic completely.

    I would certainly be willing to discuss the evidence for/against Christianity with you, but I believe we would need a careful structure for such a discussion, or we will never be able to focus it.

  4. poppies Says:

    Ah, you caught me in semantic sloppiness, I apologize. You’re right, of course; what I meant was “science is a tool which has been 100% insufficient everytime but the latest time (we think).”

    Finding a careful structure for Christian evidence discussion, there’s the rub. There’s so much involved, included defining how evidence can be determined to be compelling, what type of evidence is allowable, etc. I wonder if it’s even realistically possible. If you have any ideas as to how the whole thing could avoid being a waste of pixels, I’d love to hear them.

  5. Suby Says:

    I am not as knowledgeable as either of you sound in these topics of evidence for/against Christianity… But I would like to see this organized discussion. I think I could learn a lot from it.

  6. Arturo Says:

    It is obvious to me that the author of “Open Letter to Suby” is quote mining. If not then you either (i) misunderstand the philosophy of Karl Popper and Betrand Russell or else (ii) are deliberately misrepresenting it. The distinction that Popper draws between science and faith can best be expressed by his famous criterion of falsifiability. Stated informally: if x is a scientific theory then x can be proven false. This is where science leaves the realms of faith: it is defined quite clearly as faithlessness– we do not require propositions to be formally true, only that they be conceivably falsifiable by a given experiment. If I say that there is a green monster underneath my bed then there is a simple experiment that I can perform to prove this wrong, mainly looking under my bed and finding out that there is no monster.

    Sadly, the same is not true for religious claims. They are, much like pseudoscience and psychoanalysis (Popper uses this particular example) completely unfalsifiable.

  7. poppies Says:

    I can assure you, Arturo, that I’ve studied Popper quite extensively, and I’m a strong user of his criterion of falsifiability. It seems, however, that you’ve not done parallel extensive study of religious claims, as you a priori assume them to be unfalsifiable without truly examining the evidence (Popper also makes this error, to be fair).

    It’s hard for me to believe that someone who provides evidence of strong philosophical prejudice could have a fruitful exploration of religious claims, but nonetheless, I invite you to do so and note the various examples of falsifiability. I’m happy to provide guidance if you may not know where to begin.

  8. Arturo Says:

    Poppies,

    If it is true that you have studied Popper quite extensively which I doubt since you misunderstood his points in your original post (at any rate it does not matter since this is not a “Who has studied Popper more? contest” ;) then you will know that claims are falsifiable only if they can be hypothetically demonstrated false by an experiment that does not rely on universal generalizations. So in order for god to be falsifiable you would have to (i) define god and (ii) define an experiment by which we may show that there is no such god just like I have to define what I mean by book to show at there is no a book inside of my turkey sandwich. So I invite you, Poppies to give me a definition of god by which we may perform an experiment by which it is in theory possible to determine that he does not exist– you will note (since you are a careful reader of Popper) that the experiment cannot require me to look in all corners of the universe or in between quarks for god (unless you specifically define god as being in a particular corner of the universe or in between a particular quark in which case you will have no problem pointing this out)

  9. poppies Says:

    Arturo,

    The time it takes to thoroughly delve into such issues is, as you can imagine, fairly extensive. Accordingly, since I value my time, and as I’ve mentioned your general tone thus far has, to me, appeared prejudiced and aggressive, I’m not interested in continuing with you further. I invite you to provide evidence of your openess, upon receipt of which I may reconsider. Thanks.

  10. Arturo Says:

    Poppies,

    Above all I value reason. You have said that I appear prejudiced and agressive– I am prejudiced towards methods of inquiry that are consistent and understandable. I would not hold it against anyone if they were prejudiced against irrationality and nonsense. It was you, after all, who was “happy to prove guidance” if I did not know where to begin. All that I am asking from you, is that if you are as intellectually honest as you have said that you are then you should provide me with a clear example of how the idea of god can be falsifiable. This is not an “aggressive” request– any reasonable person has the right to ask this of you, and any intellectually responsible theist has the obligation to respond to it (especially since you specifically have claimed that numerous such examples exist).

  11. Arturo Says:

    Poppies,

    I nearly forgot to say that as for evidence of my openness upon receipt of such an example if the example that you provide is a genuine case of god being falsifiable I will drop all comparisons between god and unfalsifiable pseudo theories such as the spaghetti monster and declare god to be a genuine scientific theory. Until then…

  12. poppies Says:

    I’m sorry Arturo, I have yet to see a genuinely open spirit in your comments, and in fact, am still seeing more of the opposite. I’m not obligated to waste my time, and shall not. Thanks.

  13. Arturo Says:

    Poppies,

    It is a good day for atheists when Christians start believing that making god into a genuine theory is a “waste of time.” It confirms many of our so called “prejudices” against the rationality of religious belief. What you and I mean by “open spirit” seems to be quite different. For me an open spirit is one that is willing to consider all justifiable evidence without considering the source. When I read a paper in a scientific or philosophical journal (this applies more to the scientific one) I do not know whether the scientists is a Christian, Jew, or Muslim. I am interested in the theory or in the experiment not in the religion of the author. This to me defines an open mind– the desire to consider reasonable theories without considering from whence they come.

  14. poppies Says:

    I chide myself for giving in to your further provocation, but I feel I must clarify that it’s not providing clarity into reasonable theories about God that I find to be a waste of time, but attempting to do so with those who show signs of commitment against theism regardless of any evidence provided.

  15. Arturo Says:

    Poppies,

    You find it a waste of time to clarify theories about god “with those who show signs of commitment against theism regardless of any evidence provided.” And yet that is the entire point– you have not provided me with any evidence for god, nor even with a model by which we may say that the existence of god is a theory.

  16. roguememe Says:

    Popppies says :

    Ah, you caught me in semantic sloppiness, I apologize. You’re right, of course; what I meant was “science is a tool which has been 100% insufficient everytime but the latest time (we think).”

    With all due respect, I think that you are again misunderstanding science. No scientist in their right mind would claim that science is 100% sufficient, or ever will be. What most would argue, is that science can do a much better job explaining past events and predicting future events than can Christianity.

    If only Christian claims were put to the same rigors as scientific hypothesis.

  17. poppies Says:

    Thanks for the comment RM. The problem with your comment is that it’s utterly out of touch with many atheist scientists. I assure you, there are many, many scientists who feel science is 100% sufficient for explaining every worthwhile aspect of life, and many more who believe science will one day wrap up all loose ends via a “theory of everything”. Have you never run across such people? You need to spend more time reading atheist blogs if not.

    Christianity is a worldview which explains and predicts certain aspects of life and not others. Science, in its low form, is simply a tool, not a worldview. Therefore, they don’t have to be mutually exclusive. It’s when people bend Science to be a trojan horse for the philosophy of materialism that problems arise.

    When Science starts to be used as a rationalization for materialism, it ceases to be rigorous, and Christianity ends up being far more systematic, resonant and honest. Many Christians are not rigorous about their beliefs, but dozens of sloppy researchers don’t invalidate the scientific method, right?

    I invite you to hold up Christianity to rigorous analysis, perhaps with the help of a believer who’s not a walking caricature.

  18. roguememe Says:

    Hey Poppies,

    Atheist scientists generally do not believe that science will explain ‘everything’ but they don’t understand the desire to fill in those gaps with the bible or with a god. Science is a method, not a belief system. However, there is a great distinction in the beliefs which are derived from it and those that are derived from biblical sources or divine revelation.

    As for Christianity being more systematic, or rigorous than science, in what way? Seriously?

    Which parts of Christianity hold up under rigorous analysis? Give us a couple. Please.

    Regards,
    Scott

  19. poppies Says:

    Thanks for coming back, Scott. Please note that I didn’t claim atheist scientists often believe Science is sufficient for explaining ‘everything”, only every worthwhile thing. Many scientists limit acceptable inquiry to phenomena unrelated to direct theistic evidences, which I and many others believe to be an arbitrary limitation and a travesty against true scientific inquiry.

    Some examples:

    “Now, I have another friend who is a Harvard-educated scientist who will tell you that no miracle took place. He’s an atheist and believes that everything that happens can be explained scientifically.” - Dr. Sanjay Gupta

    “Davies, an epistemological optimist at any rate, expects that theoretical biology and mind science will one day succumb to our advancing knowledge, and that we will know, exhaustively, how the world works.” - Review of “The Cosmic Blueprint” by Paul Davies

    “Nicolelis has faith that science will one day ferret out all of the brain’s information-processing tricks” - Discover Magazine, October 2004 (speaking of Miguel Nicolelis)

    “Consciousness is the biggest puzzle facing biology, neurobiology, computational studies and evolutionary biology. It is a very, very big problem. I don’t know the answer. Nobody knows the answer. I think one day they probably will know the answer.” - Richard Dawkins

    Sounds an awful lot like a belief system to me, one that imparts a unique kind of faith.

    Now, let me point out that I think science can and should be philosophically neutral, and some atheists are quite happy to explore “supernatural phenomena” (the Amazing Randi comes to mind). But many scientists are naturalists/materialists, and their “faith” fills in many gaps that shouldn’t be filled in.

    Evolutionary theory predicts that natural selection would have a built-in efficiency, bestowing upon a creature only as much of a new and better physical trait as is needed for survival. Thus, aspects of the massively over-engineered human brain, with capacity for artistic taste, musical appreciation, and much more, using a less than efficient 20 percent of our body’s resources, are considered “spandrels”, side effects of more direct adaptations. Why? Because evolution is true, and the world of the five senses is all there is, and that’s that.

    Christianity provides a more rigorous explanation for aesthetics, and fits much of what we experience as humans in a very resonant manner. When one looks at the facts of aesthetics, theism is quite an elegant explanation.

    Asking if Christianity is more rigorous than science is like saying “which is faster, a Ford Mustang or a Ford Mustang engine?” Rational inquiry is simply a method for exploring truth, which should be defined as that which most closely corresponds to reality. There are Christian rational thinkers, and there are atheist rational thinkers, as well as irrational thinkers in both camps. There’s no great distinction in rational beliefs which arrive at theistic implications and those which arrive at atheistic implications. Both are simply seeking truth. If one limits the search for truth arbitrarily, however, one’s approach can no longer be called rigorous or systematic.

    Christianity, in its orthodox, full form, takes in all the evidence. Naturalism, in its orthodox, full form, takes in only the evidence which supports its axioms, ignores the rest, and demonizes anyone who points out the fact.

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